Ouch Podcast  No# 29 – July 2008
bbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast

Presented by Mat Fraser and Liz Carr

The Ouch Podcast is a download from the BBC. For more information, and our terms of use, go to bbc.co.uk/ouch.

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mat	Whooh! Hi there I’m Mat Fraser. 
	
Liz	And I’m Liz Carr.
	
mat	Did you hear that ladies and gentlemen?
	
liz	I’m Liz Carr.
	
mat	((Singing)) Lady Liz, so great you’re back. Now we can return to the big crack. You’re my favourite lady spack except from that girl from Shackatac. Welcome home Liz.
	
liz	It was worth going away just for that welcome home.
	
mat	I thought… 
	
liz	Well.
	
mat	… it’s lovely to have you back. 
	
liz	It’s really good.
	
mat	I mean I'm genuinely excited.
	
liz	I’m excite… we’re going to have to calm down because I am quite hyper…
	
mat	Okay. 
	
liz	… today. 
	
mat	You look fantastic! 
	
liz	I haven’t been back for a week yet so I’m a bit, you know, back …
	
mat	You look great. 
	
liz	… in England. Thank you. 
	
mat 	Rested and fed.
	
liz	Yeah ready to go. 
	
mat	Good. 
	
liz	Good.
	
mat	Let’s get on with it shall we?
	
liz	Absolutely, a lot to get in today. 
	
mat	So what have we got in this month’s show? Well reality TV has gone all visually impaired. We’ll be discussing, yes, Big Brother housemates Mikey and Darnell with one of Mikey’s colleagues, Steven, Europe’s only radio station for blind people.
	
liz	And on a similar theme, take a listen to this.
“My biggest challenge on a show would be doing a bikini walk as all girls aren’t all 100% with their body, let alone actually doing it with their disability as well.”
	
liz	A clip from BBC3’s all disability reality show ‘Britain’s Top Missing Model’ we’ll be speaking to one of the judges and one of the contestants in about 25 minutes.
	
mat	We apparently go even closer to the bone than usual with this month’s Vegetable, Vegetable or Vegetable quiz.
	
liz	And get a load of this.
[Music]
That’s Heavy Load, a punk band made up of people with and without a learning disability. We’ll be finishing the show with a track from their latest album Shut It.
	
mat	Shut it.
	
liz	And we’re giving you a chance to vote for the music we play next month. 
	
mat	Lots of other stuff this month too, but do check out the website yeah, bbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast, for pics and videos of the show. 
	
liz	So come on, what’ve you been up to? 
	
mat	Well in the last month I’m been doing this or that. The two exciting things I suppose I could say was I’ve finally got a lead role in a film, ladies and gentlemen - chit‑ching… 
	
liz	Wow!
	
mat	… well actually not chit-ching - chit-nothing because it’s a low budget film. But the important thing is it’s a gangster flick, lots of fighting that just happens to have a featured disabled character in it. And when it’s all said and done and all finished, I’d love you like review it or something - would you, would you Liz, would you review it?
	
liz	Would we? Would we? 
	
mat	Would you? 
	
liz	Maybe. 
	
mat	And the other thing… 
	
liz	Are you like Bugsy Malone? 
	
mat	In which respect?
	
liz	Well because it’s a gangster flick you said. 
	
mat	No, there’s nobody… I’m more… I’m not like any one of the characters in Bugsy Malone. 
	
liz	Ah. What about normal I mean being in a film that’s all very well but, what about…
	
mat	Normal things?
	
liz	… normal things that we do in our lives? 
	
mat 	You know me, Liz, I don’t do normal things. The other thing I did was go up to Middlesbrough, which is obviously not very normal for the people to do… and was in a what they call a motion capture suit. 
	
liz	Okay. 
	
mat 	But maybe we’ll talk a bit about that later.
	
liz	Let’s talk about that later.
	
mat	Yeah what about you, Liz hm, hm, hm?
	
liz	Well a month ago I was away, I was still away.
	
mat	Ten days ago I was with you in New York. 
	
liz	My goodness. I have to tell you there was just a couple of things that really stick out for me. We went to Memphis, we went to Gracelands, you have to be listening and you’re not.
	
mat	I am listening. 
	
liz	You’re not. 
	
mat 	I am listening.
	
liz	You’re not. 
	
mat	Memphis and Gracelands, I believe my ears are pricked up.
	
liz	Since I’ve been away, yeah, have you developed ADD - Attention Deficit?
	
mat	Ooh look at the walls, ooh look at the ceiling.
	
liz	Really… you’re worst than normal. Anyway I went to Memphis, I went to Gracelands.
	
mat	Huh, huh, ha.
	
liz	I stayed in the Heartbreak Hotel…
	
mat	Huh ha.
	
liz	… which I think is fantastic. When I was booking the room do you know what room they gave me - totally true…
	
mat	No.
	
Liz	… they gave me the King Handicap.
	
mat	Aaahh is there a King Handicap?
	
liz	There’s a King Handicap. 
	
mat	Oh my god. 
	
liz 	That just means the bed’s a king but I loved that, there’s no sense or irony. “Would you like the King Handicap?” “YES!” 
	
mat	What was it like? Can we just give one minute on Gracelands because… 
	
liz	No Mat, no it was fine. I’m not a big Elvis fan he’s dead… 
	
mat	I am.
	
liz	… do you know what I mean but it was fine.
	
mat	I’m a huge Elvis fan. 
	
liz	Yeah well. And I went to the place where they filed Dirty Dancing oh my god, you know, nobody puts Lizzy in a corner oh ha ha. 
	
mat	Ha ha very good, very good…
	
liz	Thank you, thank you.
	
Mat	… even I got that one. 
	
liz	But the best thing… 
	
mat	Yeah. 
	
liz	… right there wasn’t much to do there really, you had to spend your days in the activity bar.
	
mat	Was there a potter’s wheel there? 
	
liz	No, stop it now. But what I did do is I went in a golf buggy. I went in a golf buggy right?
	
mat	Wow!
	
liz	So and I’d never driven before…
	
mat	Ahh!
	
liz	… but I properly, but I actually sat on Jo’s knee and I drove, I could reach the pedals, I could reach the steering wheel and I had…
	
mat	I bet you could.
	
liz	I want to drive now. I really want to drive.
	
mat	Ah listeners, it’s got her hopes up, shall we tell her?
	
liz	I want to be normal just like everyone.
	
mat	You can’t be and it’s illegal for you to go anywhere near a car on the driving side, I’m sorry. 
	
liz	Really? 
	
mat	Even in America.
	
liz	Really?
	
mat	Hm-mm. Until the have golf buggy electro carts…
	
liz	Oh.
	
mat	… I’m afraid that’s… 
	
liz	I can’t drive around King’s Cross in it then? 
	
mat	You probably could.
	
liz	But it’s nice being home…
	
mat	That’s an image to think about.
	
liz	… and normal things. I spent the weekend with my family at a christening. You know how I love my family dos?
	
mat	Yes. 
	
liz	They’re great.
	
mat	We know about your family dos.
	
liz	Oh yes.
	
mat	They’re like the Roy… a bit like the crippled Royal Family…
	
liz	It’s true.
	
mat	… your family is. 
	
liz	I had to go in the front of the church, so just as it was beginning, I had to wheel in front of the priest and the whole thing, so they did christen me. 
	
mat	Now… 
	
liz	You’re not listening. 
	
mat	I am.
	
liz	I’m just doing my own thing.
	
mat 	No I am listening I’m fascinated by all your family stuff.
	
liz	You’re not. Carry on. 
	
mat	It’s just that we’ve got to go on and talk about… 
	
liz	Are we going to talk about… 
	
mat	… something that other people…
	
liz	…the most exciting thing that’s happening?
	
mat	Yes, yeah ladies and gentlemen, I don’t know if you’re aware, I’m sure you must be by now.
	
liz	Oh yes.
	
mat	Big Brother eh?
	
liz	Oh not… 
	
mat	DISABILITY!
	
LIZ	Not just one, not just one.
	
mat	Blindness.
	
liz	Two, two!	
mat 	Visual impairment and blindness. That’s a blindy brace of ((bamoonanum - ph 05:54?)) that’s the collective noun…
	
liz	Is that the collective noun…
	
mat	… yes it is.
	
liz	… of blind people - blinkies? 
	
mat	Yeah. And a brace of ((bamoonanums - ph))
	
liz	So to talk about Big Brother, on the line from Glasgow, is Steven Scott from Insight Radio. Hello Steven!
	
steven	Hello there. 
	
liz	And in the studio we have our very own Emma Tracey. 
	
emma	Hello! 
	
liz	Assistant Producer of Ouch…
	
mat	Ooohhh!
	
liz	… and the podcast. 
	
mat	No she deserves it, she’s clawed her way up...
	
liz	Absolutely.
	
mat	… from the bottom. 
	
liz	For those who don’t know, this year there are two disabled people in the Big Brother house.
	
mat	 It’s incredible. 
“Me dressed up as a bunny, Dennis dressed up as a bunny. I put my hand down there was a pair of knickers or thongs or whatever and I just put them on over my tights, over the leotard and we just kinda had a laugh…”
	
liz	Well who are they?
	
mat 	Well one of them is called Mikey, he’s the blind one. And one of them is called Darnell and he’s the visually impaired ((Albinist?)) one. 
	
liz	So Mikey is your colleague at Insight Radio that’s right Steven? 
	
steven	He is yes. What a guy he is as well, and I think that’s how he’s coming across on Big Brother as well. He’s just… he is nuts and not representative of any blind people at all except himself, but he is absolutely crazy. 
	
liz	And is he exactly like he is in real life on TV, is he being himself? 
	
steven	Well do you know I had the misfortune or fortune, it depends how you want to put it of being on Big Brother’s Little Brother a few weeks ago, and I had the chance to say I thought he was being subdued. 
	
mat	Oh my god!
	
steven	And I actually think he is being a little bit subdued to be honest guys, because he is, he is a wild card but he’s not being allowed to be that way because of one person in that house, Emma knows who I’m talking about, and… 
	
mat	What’s that - who, who? 
	
steven 	It’s Mario, Mario’s holding him back. 
	
mat	Ooh what’s going on?
	
steven 	Well basically what Mario appears to be doing is taking over Mikey because he’s got a disability, heaven forbid. And because of that Mikey’s not allowed to do anything because Mario needs to be there to make sure he’s all right and keep him, you know, on the straight and narrow, and he’s holding Mikey back in a lot of ways, which is a real shame. 
	
mat	Do you agree with that, Emma?
	
emma	Well I do to some extent, I mean, the fact is when Mario was up for eviction he said, “Oh well, you know, Michael seems to have settled in, therefore, my job is done and I can go now.” Which was, you know, really, really, really interesting. 
	
mat	Did he sprout wings at that point?
	
emma	Michael’s not doing a whole heap to help himself either. I mean, I actually happen to know Michael as well, which is very boring, of course.
	
mat	Do all blind people know each other? 
	
steven	That’s a ((comic incenses 08:25?)) isn’t it?
	
emma	Well not far off though, not far off.
	
mat	But listen I want to get straight down to the peanut butter of it all, okay? 
	
liz	Put the knife in, come on put the knife in. 
	
mat	I’m going to stick the knife in, lick it and put it back in again, okay? 
	
liz	You do it. 
	
mat	Listen, okay so the housemates are getting annoyed because he’s not being very good with his peanut butter knife. Does that mean that all people on the street now think you Steven, and you Emma, are also peanut butter criminals? 
	
steven	I don’t know, I mean, Emma, you might be better equipped to answer this, you being completely blind, me being partially sighted I don’t know. 
	
liz	Oh we’ve got a little hierarchy going on here. 
	
emma	Oh no I don’t...
	
liz	Get me. 
	
emma	… I don’t think I’m better equipped, please don’t say that. I mean, just to put it into context, so to speak, Michael, a couple of days ago, was chatting away to someone in the house with a jar of peanut butter in one hand and a knife in the other and eating the peanut butter out of the jar with the knife, and putting the knife back into the jar. 
	
mat	I’m sorry I don’t care what disability you’ve got, if you’re living with other people and you’re over the age of what, well you have a mental age of more than 11, you know what you’re doing.
	
emma	And he also, he hasn’t always… I mean I don’t want to dis Mikey I quite like him, but he hasn’t always been blind either. He’s only been blind for the last ten years. So he doesn’t really have the excuse of not realising that people can see what he’s doing or to realise… 
	
mat 	Oh, of course. 
	
emma	… that that’s not particularly socially acceptable. But he’s not… I reckon, I fully reckon that before Michael lost his sight he wasn’t too sure what was socially acceptable and what wasn’t. Because he, as Steven said earlier, he’s not necessarily ambassador for anybody, Michael is himself; Michael is a one off. 
	
liz	But apart from Mario who we’ve heard about - the carer type, let’s say, how are the other housemates reacting to having disabled people? 
	
mat 	And what about Darnell and Mikey’s relationship I’m interested in that. 
	
steven 	Well yeah you would automatically think that perhaps they might just get on because well, you know, they both got an eyesight problem but I don’t think that’s happening at all. 
I think what’s happening is that Darnell figured out Michael was blind right away, he must have realised right away, and stayed away from him and kept out of his way entirely. And that seems to have happened, I mean, they have had conversations on/off, as have all the housemates had conversations with Mikey. But when it comes to actually sitting down and getting to know him it seems that Mikey’s almost left out of conversations. 
I saw a conversation between himself, Luke, Mario, Lisa they were all having a chat, and it seems like almost, you know, anything that Michael says is sort of “Yeah, yeah, yeah whatever, that’s fine,” you know, thanks for adding that, but, you know, we’ll just ignore it and move on.
	
emma	I think that all that Darnell staying away from Mikey proves is that blind and visually impaired people don’t necessarily, you know, magnetise towards each other. And also, I mean if we can talk about Darnell for a minute, he’s… 
	
mat	Let’s.
	
emma	… got Albinism. And he’s quite negative about the fact that he has Albinism, and believes that the only thing that it’s done for him is cause him hardship. And he said this near the beginning of the time, he saw Mikey actually being really positive about being blind and not really having any issues with it.
	
mat	Yeah. 
	
emma	And he actually stayed away, he said this to Michael, so, you know, it’s not just surmising or anything. He actually stays away from Michael a little bit because he doesn’t want to be seen… it’ll show up his negativity too much and it might cause Michael to be more negative. 
But Darnell has meshed into the house much, much better than Mikey. And maybe it’s easier when you’ve got some sight. But also I think he’s found a group of lads that he can really identify with who don’t have a disability!
	
mat	Visually impaired experts on the Big Brother subject.
	
liz	Yeah. 
	
mat	Will it all end in tears or will they stay in until the end? 
	
steven 	Ah well that’s the thing, I mean, it all depends because there’s one other player at the moment who looks like the sure winner. 
	
mat	((Hissing))
	
steven	It’s Kat. What I think will probably happen and I don’t want to put any ideas forward here, but I think the suggestion would be that Mikey and Kat get to the end and, who knows, it might just be Kat that wins it.
	
emma	I think that Luke is a good contender as well. And I don’t think that Michael will be in the last three, I think he’ll come out in the middle somewhere. And I think that Darnell will be closer to the finishing line than Michael. 
	
mat	I suppose guys only time will tell. Thank you visually impaired and blind experts.
	
liz	Yes thank you, Steven. I have one question for you - when Mikey does get out will he still have a job at Insight? 
	
steven	Of course he will we’re… 
	
liz	Thank goodness.
	
steven	… supporting him all the way. 
	
liz	Thank goodness. Thanks for joining us.
[Jingle: Leave a message for us on 0208 752 5444]
	
mat	We’ve got Rob Crossan in the studio again. Rob, you’re looking as devastatingly handsome as ever, but I know you’ve got Albinism but you’re looking at little bit more red than you should be. What’s been going on? 
	
rob	It’s unbelievably I’ve just come back from Glastonbury; sunburn is the nature of the game… 
	
mat	Wow!
	
rob	… not trench foot … 
	
mat	Wow!
	
rob	… or dysentery but sunburn. 
	
mat	Aw I'm very glad for you.
	
rob	It was brilliant. 
	
mat	Did you have a good time? 
	
rob	I did it was fantastic, although I never found… Liz was just telling me before about the disability field.
	
mat	Yeah. 
	
rob	Which I must say I never found but… 
	
liz	How could you avoid it? Really, no it’s fantastic, it’s this place where two people help you put your tent up, there’s a tent for charging wheelchairs and they sort you out and they’ll even collect you from the car park in a specially adapted van and all of that. 
	
mat	Wow!
	
liz	So how could you miss this? 
	
rob	That just sounds far too good to be true. Are you sure you’re not… 
	
liz 	It’s true. 
	
mat	Give us your highlights? Everybody has to have a Glastonbury highlight don’t they? 
	
rob 	My highlight was probably going to see Amy Winehouse punch random members of the audience while singing Rehab was really rather exciting. 
	
mat	Sounds pretty good to me. 
	
rob	Yeah.
	
liz	Do you think she’s one of us Rob? 
	
rob	She will be… 
	
liz	Yes if she’s not fully fledged. 
	
mat	That would be brilliant. Anyway, you’re here to tell us about some whacked out news.
	
rob	Yes and well the first one and this is absolutely extraordinary even by disability news standards, this is from the Zimbabwe Sunday News… 
	
mat	Uh ho!
	
liz	Your regular Sunday paper.
	
rob	It really should be. And this is from just before the completely legitimate free and fair elections… 
	
liz	 Of course. 
	
rob	… in ((14:29?)). Zanu PF polit bureau member Joshua Malinga yesterday called upon people with disabilities to vote for Bob during the Friday presidential run off. He said President Mugabe’s victory would mean continuity of all empowerment programme the government ((14:45?)). He says, “I’m calling upon all disabled people to join the progressive forces and go and vote for President Mugabe during Friday’s presidential run off”. He said, “Zanu PF was the most progressive party for disabled people.”
	
liz	Wow!
	
rob	“And that disabled people…” 
	
liz	What must the other parties have been like my god.
 	
rob	Yeah no “disabled people were supposed to vote for President Mugabe because all their rights were enshrined in the Constitution of Zimbabwe.” Now I’m just wondering how much has this got to do with the tactic of Zanu PF’s bully boys of, when they find people who have noted MDC, their punishment is either long sleeve or short sleeve. Long sleeve meaning you get your arm hacked off to the shoulder, or short sleeve meaning you have both hands hacked off to the wrist. So I guess they are doing their bit for disability, because there’s a lot more disabled people in Zimbabwe than there used to be. 
	
mat	Oh my god!
	
liz	And if I ever go travelling again it looks like that’s the place to go. 
	
rob	You will not be alone. 
	
liz	I’ll be protected in the law.
	
rob	Yeah.
	
mat	Will you do an outside broadcast for us Liz?
	
liz	Would you like to come over and… 
	
mat	No you’re all right, I’ll stay at home.
	
liz	You’ve already got the short arms though Mat. It really doesn’t matter. 
	
rob	You are voted for, “Yeah I voted for you.” “No you didn’t quite obviously.” You are Bob proof in a twisted, unsavoury and highly dysfunctional way, thank you Robert Mugabe for doing your bit for disabled people this month. 
	
liz 	That’s our Zimbabwe election story. Now what’s this yet more dodgy DLA claimants? 
	
Rob	This is yeah this month’s contribution to, I think, what is going to become the regular disability Darwin Awards. 
	
mat	I was going to say wasn’t there something like this a couple of months ago? 
	
rob	Yeah the stories are just news I love them, it’s just unbelievably rubbish fraudulent disability claims. 
	
mat 	Ah ha this is hot.
	
rob	This is a good one, this is ((16:20?)) Leslie Webb in Gloucester. And this is a guy who received £60,000 in disability allowances whilst playing bowls, running a taxi business and, best of all, being a coffin bearer. I love it, I love it. Obviously, the judge said that he had, and I quote, “grossly exaggerated” his illness. 
	
liz 	I don’t know what’s wrong with that I think you could do all of those three things and still qualify for DLA.
	
rob	Well you… 
	
liz	You could.
	
rob	… but if you get found out you’re going to get banned from the Bowl’s Club.
	
liz	This is true.
	
rob 	He’s banned from the Bowl’s Club now.
	
liz	No. 
	
rob	Never mind.
	
liz	It’s like a double whammy not only does he get his DLA removed, he also doesn’t get to play bowls. 
	
rob	He also he’s going to be able to be a coffin bearer though, so you know, ((17:04?)) 
	
liz	What did he say? On his claim for what did it say he had?
	
rob	It doesn’t say, I’ve no idea. Yeah I mean maybe you’ve probably got more experience in this than me… 
	
liz	No I’m just intrigued.
	
rob	… not that you’re in any way fraudulent. 
	
liz	Thank you, sshh, sshh.
	
rob	You’ve probably filled out more forms than I have. 
	
mat	But it is like dodgy DLA claimant of the month now isn’t it? 
	
rob	Yeah I’m going to do it every month…
	
mat	Yeah you should.
	
ROB	… and then maybe we can ((17:23?)) I love the triple whammy of taxi business, coffin bearer, crown green bowls champion, it’s like just stay indoors.
	
mat	So I want to know why disabled people are, all of a sudden, sexy, Rob, what’s going on? 
	
rob 	This is rather good. This is the Centre for Excellence in Sexual Health in Atlanta. And they had a conference last week called ‘Wounded Troops and Partners Supporting Intimate Relationships’ and this is really… 
	
mat	((Hello!?)) 
	
rob	It’s a little bit of an exercise in pointing out the bleeding obvious, frankly, in terms that there’s a lot of prepositions such as, ‘people with disabilities aren’t sexual beings’, ‘people with disabilities are undesirable’, ‘it’s good sex and how to be spontaneous’ blady, blady blah and it goes on to counteract all these things. 
	
mat	Yeah.
	
rob 	But they’re doing it in rather a graphic way which for Fox News I think is really rather good. There’s this one guy, a researcher, is telling Fox website readers that, and there’s a video that you saw which shows that people with disabilities can indeed be sexually active. 
In this video the man was paralysed from the neck down yet despite his condition he was able to bring his able bodied partner to climax, all it required was some movement on her part and his talented tongue. And he says, “As I listen to her moan and then scream her way into bliss, I remember being struck by the fact that she had just experienced what many women with non disabled lovers do not. I remember thinking that the loving exchange I’d just witnessed was more beautiful than most depictions of sex we normally see in pornography.” 
	
liz	Wow!
	
rob	So what I’m coming out of this is thinking is it really rather a great thing that the notoriously unintelligent American news reading public are being told such enlightened things about disabled people and sex? Or is it slightly depressing that we’re still having to be told what is, essentially, the bleeding obvious? What do you think? 
 	
mat	I don’t know, I think it’s probably both. What do you think Rob?
	
rob	I think it’s still slightly annoying the fact to be told such things which I would’ve thought are really quite obvious, to be quite honest. But then again we present the Ouch podcast…
	
mat	Exactly. 
	
rob	… which is slightly more enlightened aren’t we? 
	
mat	We know that but maybe they don’t. 
	
rob	… as are our listeners yeah. 
	
mat	Liz, you travel around the world what do they think?
	
liz	Don’t you think it’s just another opportunity for a few academics to have a jolly in Atlanta for a weekend, and write a few papers all about disability that really we all know what the content is and we all know the truth? 
	
mat	I guess it does.
	
rob	Fox are so conservative though.
	
liz	Oh yeah. 
	
rob	To see sex written about in such a relatively explicit way… 
	
mat	I suppose it because they’re the troops isn’t it and in a way it’s that whole doing your best by the brave boys… 
	
rob	Our brave boys in Baghdad. 
	
mat	… yeah all of that. I think it is, I think it’s something we should talk about at some point which is the disabled vets and all of that sort of stuff. But, personally speaking, for all the stuff we’ve mentioned, if it gets a few more freshly disabled vets to be able to think about themselves again sexually, whereas before they hadn’t, then I think that’s probably a good thing. 
	
liz	Yeah another good old media disability gaff Rob? 
	
rob	Yes this one comes predictably from Australia. Especially after Kiruna turned last month’s podcast into a Derek and Clive sketch in terms of the ((swearage?)) that went on. Yeah again the theme continues, this is an NRL footie show, the presenter was called Paul ((Vortin 20:22?)) and he’s been forced to apologise after an embarrassing on-air gaff when he incorrectly labelled a mentally disabled man as being drunk. 
This was a live ‘on the spot’ vox pot thing following a game, and he commented to the commentator at the stadium, “What about the security, that bloke behind you was blind” meaning drunk. Unfortunately, the man in question suffers from benign epilepsy which causes slurring in speech and learning difficulties. The disabled man’s father said, “My son was portrayed as drunk, and as a person who was drinking on the job, my son Greg has definitely not been drinking and he hardly ever drinks because of his disability. His condition means he just comes across as slow but they’ve assumed he’s pissed” - as it the Australian way. So a on-air apology is going to be given on the next show. But I love it, is there a more insensitive nation on earth than the Australians? 
	
liz	But isn’t it refreshing as well don’t you think? 
	
rob	I always find it slightly crude; I’ve got to be honest. 
	
liz	Oh no. 
	
mat 	Has Prince Philip ever been to Australia because wouldn’t they get on like a house on fire. 
	
rob	He’d be like a demigod if he moved over there wouldn’t he? 
	
mat	Yeah, he’d be like doing a stand up tour without realising it. 
	
liz	But isn’t that one Francesca Martinez does that when she comes on doesn’t she? She says that the proper name for her condition is sober. 
	
rob	Oh that’s right yeah.
	
liz	Because when she walks on she has CP, you know, and slurs speech and the way she walks.
	
rob	Is that the opening line she did nine years ago and is still doing now? 
	
liz	Anyway, so have you got…
	
mat	Ooohhh!
	
liz	… have you got anything else, any other titbits for us? 
	
rob	Yes there’s one more, one more story. Now this is what I want to know - this actually came out today. Inaccessible venues make it harder for people to go out. Only one in three disabled people socialise in pubs or clubs. The Leonard Cheshire Disability Foundation… 
	
liz	Boo!
	
rob	… have ruled that only 38% of disabled people socialise in pubs compared to 57% of non disabled people. Now I’d like to think that this is because disabled people have got a bit more of an imagination and are going to swinger’s parties or brass rubbing or something like that, but maybe it’s just the fact that they can’t get into pubs with staircases, I mean, I don’t know. I don’t know I see quite a lot of disabled people in pubs.
	
mat	You see them more and more don’t you unless they’re just drunk and we don’t realise. 
	
rob	Yeah well again we’re going back to Australia again now aren’t we so we’d better not. 
	
mat	Well one of those theme pubs ((22:32?))… 
	
liz	I have to apologise for booing. 
	
mat	Yes I think you should. I think Leonard Cheshire and all the old fashioned disability charities have really modernised in the last five years, and I really think that you ought to be more proactive.
	
liz	Boo! Boo!
	
mat	Anyway… I don’t know what to say next I just wanted to stop you booing. 
	
rob	It is all right - should more disabled people be going to pubs even if it means that there’s more disabled alcoholics around is this a good thing? 
	
mat	Well I mean given that it’s the poison of choice by our culture I think that disabled people should have equal access to getting their ((23:04?)).
	
rob	We should embrace our god given right to booze until two minutes past midnight ((in most pubs 23:09?)). 
	
liz	Yeah but surely the issue is that won’t people just think that we’re drunk and not disabled? 
	
rob	But that probably would be better.
	
liz	Only in Australia. 
	
rob	People would probably treat you better I think in many ways because at least you’d get a more honest reaction “Look you’re pissed, get out.” Rather than “Is there any way I can help you?” I’d rather be just, you know, told to get out, I mean, I quite enjoy the rudeness.
	
liz	Rob, thank you. 
	
mat	And on that contentious note we’ve got to say goodbye to you…
	
liz	We have.
	
mat	… and I’ll drink to that.
 	
rob	Cheers!
	
	[Jingle: This is the Ouch podcast from the BBC in London.]
 	
mat	Tuesday 1st saw the start of BBC3 reality show Britain’s Missing Top Model. Eight disabled girls fight it out over five weeks all learning the tricks of the trades through various different modelling tasks. 
	
liz	One by one they’re eliminated until the last one standing, or not standing, wins a photo shoot in fashion magazine Marie Claire.
	
mat	The first girl to be eliminated by the judges was Becca and she’s with us in the studio. Hi, Becca!
	
becCa	Hello!
	
liz	And one of the judges responsible for that decision was wheelchair user and writer and judge on the show, Lara Masters.
 	
lara	Hello!
	
mat	Before we get into this chat, let’s have a clip. Now this clip is when Becca was receiving the judge’s reviews of the photos from the first task. 
“Rebecca, let’s see your picture. Leg on, firmly on view.”
“It shows me for me as shows me as a disabled person with a prosthetic leg and I think it looks quite good in the picture yeah.”  
	
liz	So, Becca, what was it like to be the first person eliminated from the show?
	
becca	Yeah it was quite upsetting really, I was absolutely gutted, but then again, I saw the reasons why I was eliminated. My picture was the weakest out of everybody else so I understand why it was my time to go.
 	
liz	And was it weakest because it was anything to do with the leg on or leg off as we just heard?
	
lara	No.
	
becca	No it was nothing to do with the leg on/off it was all to do with facial expressions and I’m not very good at pouting. I look better in pictures when I smile so that was reason why I was eliminated. 
	
mat	So, Becca, what made you apply to be on the show in the first place?
 	
becca	Well actually one of my friends at the gym saw the advertisement on the show and she told me that I should go for it, and as soon as I saw it I was like, oh my God wow and I was really interested in doing it. So yeah I applied and a couple of weeks later I was, you know, moving into the house.
 	
liz	Wow! So the house you all lived together for how long, how long were you altogether for?
 	
becca	Well it was all in total three weeks, I was there for about five days and yeah it was amazing, it was a £4m penthouse in Chelsea Harbour and…
	
mat	Nice.
	
becca	… my god I didn’t want to leave.
	
mat	I bet you didn’t.
	
becca	I loved it, it was amazing. 
	
liz	And tell us about the other girls and that experience of living together? 
	
becca	Well because I was only in there a little while we all got on really well. Eight girls living together there’s going to be a bit of bitchiness, but not that much by the time I left. So everyone was really nice, I got on with everybody. 
	
mat	Good.
	
liz	Well we want to talk to Lara but before we do, we’re going to hear a clip now and this is where, Lara, you’re talking with the judges about what they should be looking for in the competition. 
“How far can a deaf girl change perceptions of disability through image.” 
“At the end of the day it’s about finding somebody that’s going to work. That other girl is not going to work.” 
“We don’t need somebody who can just work, we need someone who can work and speak and be a spokesperson…
“But if they don’t…”
“… and be versatile. It’s a much broader range than just someone who’s going to work in a teen magazine.”
“Yeah but what do we want, do we want somebody who’s going to be - somebody who’s just going to be a role model and that’s it?”
“No we want somebody who’s a model…”
“We’re looking for a model who can… 
“… a model and a role model.”
“… be a role model as well.” 
“They can’t just be a model.”
	
mat	Wow role model versus fashion model. So, Lara, one of the hot topics spanning this series then is, obviously, whether the model should look disabled or not. Can you tell us a bit about that? 
	
lara 	Yeah well when I started judging there are two girls in the competition who were deaf. And at first I thought if you were looking at a picture of a model in a magazine you’re not going to know they’re disabled if they’re deaf and wouldn’t that be pointless. 
But actually when I was working with the girls and looking at their photos and seeing the difficulties they had working with the photographers and behind the scenes, I thought well if a deaf… I thought I’m not going to discriminate against deaf girls, because they’re not showing their disability, because actually they’re going to change perceptions behind the scenes. If someone wins and can overcome their communication problems with the photographer or a casting director, then they’re going to spread awareness, it just won’t be visible. 
	
mat 	You’ve done a bit of modelling in your time, Lara, haven’t you tell us a bit about that, what was it like? 
	
lara 	Well before I was disabled, because I’ve got a degenerative condition, so before I was obviously disabled I was modelling for girls’ magazines and for my mum’s company - my mum runs Pineapple. And when my disability became more obvious and I had a limp I tried to get modelling work but I couldn’t get an agent. But when my disability became really obvious and I used a wheelchair I was recruited by a disabled model agency, but I just didn’t get very much work and the work was kind of advertising access for disabled buses - it was just not New York Fashion Week. 
	
liz	Interesting, so for you a very clear experience of how when you were not disabled you got work, you did well as a model but then when you became disabled not at all. What did you find, or what do you think were the biggest barriers, what’s stopped you from working? 
	
lara	Well when I was first becoming disabled and I just had a limp it wasn’t that my disability was visible in photos, so it was people… the casting agents were just, I think, just that whole cliché of people being scared and fearful about disability that wasn’t actually, I did look like a model I just didn’t walk like a model. So it’s the same old thing we’re dealing with now, it’s just fear, ignorance and people not having enough familiarity with it.
	
mat	Becca, are you… commiserations on being the first ejectee, but is this something that you think you might be pursuing, has it inspired you to want to become a model or are you just going to jack it all in now? 
	
becca	No not really because I’ve never thought about modelling to begin with, I just got involved in it because I thought it would be exciting, and I thought it would open other doors and opportunities for me. And me knowing that I’m not the most photogenic person I wouldn’t pursue a… I’m 27 almost 28, so I wouldn’t pursue something where you get it into when you’re younger when I’m not really that good at it. So no I’m not going to pursue a career in modelling.
	
liz	I was reading and it said that you, up until going on the show you hadn’t mixed a great deal with other disabled people.
	
becca	No, no that’s correct I didn’t really hang around with any disabled people.
	
liz	How did you find that aspect of the show then? 
	
becca	To be quite honest with you I was quite nervous to begin with, because I’ve never associated with disabled people. And you see them, and that’s what people notice first about us is our disability, so they feel fearful to talk to us. But within a little while of being in the house and talking to all the other girls you don’t see the disability you see the person. And that’s one thing I hope this show helps people to approach us better and not feel afraid of us because we are just like everybody else.
	
mat	Sure.
	
lara	Can I interject there? 
	
mat	Sure please do. 
	
lara	Because it was just really interesting doing the programme, and I think this is really interesting for just disabled people - all the girls have disabilities, and all the girls said I don’t really associate with disabled people and I was scared. I just thought that was so interesting, because disabled people, obviously, have the same fears as everyone else. 
	
becca	Yeah it is.
	
lara	We still have, we’ve still got the images that everyone else has of normality being non disabled people. I just thought it was fascinating that everyone in the house said the same thing. 
	
becca	Even though we are disabled ourselves.
	
lara	Even though we’re disabled. 
	
becca 	We look at it…
 	
lara	Yeah and there was even that, “Oh well ‘they’…”  people were saying ‘they’.
	
mat	Well I know Becca just used that.
	
lara	Yeah.
 	
mat	You just did that yourself.
 	
becca	Yeah I do that.
	
lara	But I do that too, I do that too.
 	
mat	Yeah. I want to know something, I’ve watched the first episode in preview, and I want to know the guys that read Nuts magazine those lad’s mags, what do you think they’re going to think when they see it. Do you think they’re going to go, “Ugh they’re disabled I’m not sure about that, but only if I was drunk.” Or, are they going to go, “You know what I’ve never fancied a disabled girl, but do you know what, they were just like the rest of us” a ((31:23?))
	
lara	Becca and I go, we go out a lot okay, and we’re quite obviously disabled, me maybe slightly more than you.
 	
mat 	A little bit.
 	
lara	Not that it’s a competition...
 	
mat	No, no, no.
	
lara	… not that I’m winning the disability competition of anything. But we go out clubbing and we go to parties and we do get approached by those Nuts readers, all the time. And they don’t go, “Well if I was drunk I would” they’re generally quite drunk and they’re quite happy to.
	
mat	Yeah so I think the programme is doing quite a good service for that section of the community.
 	
becca	Yeah I think it’s to do with personality as well. If you’ve got a good personality then people feel that they can talk to you. Because we’re quite ‘out there’ people and we talk to people easily, and they’re not scared or int--… not that they would be anyway, but they find us approachable because we’re those, not the kind of people that stand there in the corner all shy and just don’t do anything. We’re out doing pretty much everything that everybody else does. 
	
liz	In the run up to the show there was incredibly publicity.
	
mat	A huge amount.
	
liz	BBC1 were advertising it, it’s on BBC3 isn’t it? 
	
becca	Hm. 
	
liz	It was on Radio One so really going for the, I guess, younger people market as well. So what do you think, to both of you really, what do you think the show is going to teach people? 
	
becca 	I think it’s definitely going to teach people that we are more approachable and that we are just like everybody else. The fears that everybody have about disabled people, about finding it hard to approach them, I think when they watch the show they’re going to just see that we’re just like everyone else - like to have fun, we have the same kind of issues, same kind of girl relationships. And I just hope, if it doesn’t change the fashion industry, then it might change people’s, like the viewer’s perceptions of disability. 
	
mat	And what’s your take on that Lara?
	
lara	I really think it will. I was amazed that the programme managed to find eight disabled girls who are not just beautiful but are really interesting, fascinating, bright, intriguing all really strong characters, not necessarily nice, but really strong characters - real individuals and that blew me away. This programme is not like other modelling programmes where you have the same vacuous, this is a horrible thing to say but it’s true because I’ve watched them for research for this programme, they’re kind of vacuous they really want to be models and they’re just not very interesting. I mean, unfortunately, that is the truth. With all these… 
	
mat	Well I would agree with you that the disability factor is what separates this programme from those programmes.
	
lara	But it somehow makes these girls actually interesting as people and fun to be around. 
	
mat	Well everybody knows we’re more interesting as people.
	
lara	Well I’ve just discovered this.
	
mat	Disabled people very, very deep. 
	
becca 	We’re more down to earth and real…
	
mat	Yes I know.
	
becca	… and we don’t fret… 
	
lara	I thought it was just me.
	
becca	… and worry about little things, but we just seem like fun going people and we don’t get upset over the slightest thing or drama over the slightest thing. I don’t know I just think we… 
	
lara	I think we’re special. 
	
mat	Ahh.
	
lara	I think we’ve been… 
	
becca	We are. 
	
lara	… for too long we’ve been “Don’t call us special” but you know what let’s embrace it, we are special. 
	
becca 	Yeah! 
	
mat	I’m going to embrace it right now. WE’RE SPECIAL OOH!
	
liz	Hurrah for us! Hurrah for us and the BBC!
	
mat	You can see Britain’s Missing Top Model on BBC3 for the next six Tuesday nights at 9:00pm. And if you missed the first episode or need to catch up with the show you can see it via the website bbc.co.uk/missing model. 
	
liz	Thank you both. 
	
becca	Thank you.
	
mat 	Thanks a lot. Great. 
[Jingle: bbc.co.uk/ouch]
	
liz	Okay so I’ve been away what’s this about you now being in a video game? Are you a super hero now or something?
	
mat	Well, not exactly. But Middlesbrough University have got one of these what they call motion capture suits and cameras. So you know Andy Serkis who played Gollum in Lord of the Rings he was in that funny suit with all those bobbles all over it, and then there’s a circle of 15 cameras all around him that only pick up the bobbles, so they digitally represent a human figure. 
And what the people up at Middlesbrough University, Simon McCowan and his cohorts are interested in, is mapping and charting the movements of disabled people, actually his agenda is that he thinks that in 50 years’ time we might all be eradicated and such alternative movements won’t still exist anymore. But I went up there being the martial artist type to get punched and kicked and thrown all over the place and run backwards and forwards and pretend to be blown backwards (I had a really sore neck the next day) but it was really good fun. 
	
liz	So all your movements are captured for this game?
	
mat	Yeah. But he also had me reading a book and tying my shoe laces and eating a sandwich. So he wants the action stuff but he’s actually more interested in just the different way disabled people move. And it was fascinating, it was really interesting.
	
liz	I love that idea. 
	
mat	There were, obviously, things you can and can’t do etc. and what makes you special. 
	
liz	Well like the unique way that you move ((36:01?))
	
mat	Absolutely yeah. 
	
liz	I had heard of it, when you said about this video game I thought, my god that’s incredible.
	
mat	It would be brilliant. 
	
liz	Is that where it’s leading?
	
mat	They’re hoping, as am I, obviously, because there’s a nice bit of work in it if they are, to make it an actual video game, kind of like… I said would it be like Resident Evil where a load of zombies attack the people in the house, but the people in the house, like the heroes would all have different impairments and you’d have to use their movements to… 
	
liz	Oh wow!
	
mat	… thwart the foe as it were. 
	
liz	So some of them like I couldn’t lift a gun in real life.
	
mat 	But you’d have other special movements like turbo on your wheelchair or something to smash into them. 
	
liz	Nice with fire bombs and things like that.
	
mat	Yeah, yeah. 
	
liz	You see I love the idea of having super power, I used to love playing Tomb Raider and there’s a computer game where you have the karate moves - love that really you know. 
	
mat	I know, I know I used to love Virtua Fighter 3.
	
liz	And I think there’s something maybe about being able to do the things that you can’t do. 
	
mat	Yeah. 
	
liz	Isn’t it? In a weird sense I remember Lara would jump off things and she’d be swimming, and I’d go “I can’t do that in hydro I’d drown” but look at her, that’s me and I quite liked that controlling it.
	
mat	It’s virtual liberation.
	
liz	Maybe it is, or living out a bit of what you can’t do and alter ego I guess. Do you mind if I talk about something that’s a bit personal? 
	
mat 	As long as… yes it’s not too personal? 
	
liz	No don’t worry I’m not going down that route okay, it’s fine. 
	
mat	What, what? 
	
liz	Okay, when I was away there was something that happened that I’m not comfortable with and I’m not happy about myself.
	
mat	Tell me all about it, Liz.
	
liz	Okay. I do need to get it off my… 
	
mat	Okay. 
	
liz	Okay, are you ready… off my chest.
	
mat	Lie back on the couch that’s it. 
	
liz	Okay. So we found ourselves in this quite remote desert island, off Australia, the Great Barrier Reef, around the Great Barrier Reef okay - beautiful. But it literally was a two mile by two mile island which was made up mostly of sand. 
	
mat	Yes.
	
liz	So you can imagine as a wheelchair user from the start it wasn’t that easy to get… 
	
mat 	Slow going? 
	
liz	Yeah.
	
mat	Yes.
	
liz	That number one. 
	
mat	Yeah. 
	
liz	Also you go there to swim and to do things in the water. Well I’m terrified of water and can’t swim okay?
	
mat	Right. 
	
liz	But went there for my partner, for Jo too, to enjoy it she’d never been to the Great Barrier Reef so great okay. But there I am on an island and I really can’t get from A to B without any assistance at all, and I can’t do all the things that are going on, so I became a miserable bitch and I became evil - really, no… 
	
mat	Like genuinely evil or pretend Liz evil?
	
liz	No really evil, no can’t apologise for it because I was just evil. And Jo was going, “Oh it’s okay I’ll stay with you, I won’t go swimming.” And I was, of course, playing that “No, no go, go I don’t mind, I’m here, I’m fine here with my book and my blanket on my lap” you know what I mean? 
	
mat	Yeah. 
	
liz	So she would and then I hated her for going and enjoying…
	
mat	Ha ha wow. Have you had this before?
	
liz	It’s only ever on occasions where there’s something like that I kind of I guess I wish I could do. And there’s that thing where other people go and do it anyway. And I have that conflict with I really wanted to be happy that she’s exploring it, experiencing something else, I wanted to be like Heidi or Clara or which one “Oh it’s great you enjoy your life whatever” but I was sat on the sidelines and I didn’t take kindly to that. 
	
mat 	Do you think it would’ve been the same if it had been your daughter and not your partner? 
	
liz	Erm…hm. 
	
mat	Because I often see… I seem to often have seen disabled mums and that looking lovingly at their young child frolicking on the adventure playground with pride. I think it different if it was a kid wouldn’t it? 
	
liz	Maybe, maybe.
	
mat	It’s just resentment when it’s your partner. 
	
liz	Because I think even if she had have stayed out of the water and not done things, and she was really sensitive to it and couldn’t really understand what was going on, because she couldn’t do right for doing wrong…
	
mat	Yeah. 
	
liz	Yeah? Because she’d have stayed out the water I’d have felt bad anyway. “Oh well I’m horrible for making you do this” do you know what… 
	
mat	Yeah. Were you not just being all grumpy that day and you just happened to be at the Barrier Reef?
	
liz	No. Do you know what we were there for three days and it was a nightmare, and probably if we’ve ever almost split up it was then, because I just couldn’t… I was just a totally different person. 
	
mat 	I guess this must happen a lot with disabled people and their non disabled partner maybe? 
	
liz	Is it that or is it, I mean I think I was also in an environment that was so hostile to me. Like I say, I was so disabled on this island. 
	
mat	This is what… but this, to an extent, is like the whole real boundary syndrome for me. It’s like if you’ve got a certain deal with your body, why go and put yourself in a situation where you’re in a no win situation, like it sounds like you were at the Barrier Reef… 
	
liz	Yeah. 
	
mat	Even if you are just doing it to please your partner? 
	
liz	Yeah. And also I thought, amazing we’re going to be on a desert island this is incredible, and of course, it was beautiful, but the beauty of it that was irrelevant because it was just such a miserable experience. And do you know what made it worse?
	
mat	What?
	
liz	There was a disabled person on there as well who, by freak of nature, I happened to know.
	
mat	Yes.
	
Liz	So here we have this 200 people on this island.
	
mat	Other side of the world. 
	
liz	They’re on there as well didn’t know this, and they had a ball. And they were diving and scuba and having an absolute the best time of their lives. And they managed to get over the sand and they didn’t mind that their partner had to help them. So that was also quite difficult because… 
	
mat	I wonder what the moral of this story is? 
	
liz	Do you know what I don’t think… I was hoping you might be able to… 
	
mat	Well I think, ladies and gentlemen, and the moral of this story is… 
	
liz	Just don’t go to a desert island.
	
mAt	… if you live in a wheelchair like Liz don’t go to the Barrier Reef. I guess it’s the same as if you’re a thalidomide with flippers like me don’t go on a boxing weekend. 
	
liz	Really?
	
mat	Yes.
	
liz	Is that the same… 
	
mat 	Or don’t go to an arm wrestling convention. 
	
liz	But have you… okay what I want to know from you, have you ever had an experience where the person that you’re with goes off and does something that you can’t do, and you feel, while you should be glad for it you’re actually not?
	
mat	I’m trying to think and a couple of occasions where that’s happened the person has done the opposite and gone, “Oh no I’m not interested in doing that at all.” Obviously they really are, and they’re saying it in solidarity, I’ve just let them “Oh right okay.” I don’t know it’s a real complicated one that isn’t it? But Liz what do you like doing apart from… yes keep it clean. 
	
liz	No sshh. Apart from that I had, I love theme parks, you know that, I love lounging around and just watching… I love doing nothing sometimes.
	
mat	Watching the world go by. 
	
liz	Watching the world go by. I’m happy, you know I don’t have to be doing stuff and I don’t have to be a part of doing stuff. And I had a go at swimming even though it was a nightmare and doing things I’ve not done before.
	
mat	What happened did you sink? 
	
liz	It was dreadful.
	
mat	Did you sink or float? Are you a witch or a human?
	
liz	I sank.
	
mat	That means you’re a human. 
	
liz	Allegedly, allegedly. 
	
mat	Ah did somebody some and fish you out? 
	
liz	Yes they had to with a really big cripnet so that was good.
 	
mat	Cripnets? Do people go cripping?
	
liz	Yes, scrimping if you’re little as well. So that works out well. 
	
mat	Is that like crimping?
	
liz	The good thing and now we have to talk about this before we finish yeah? 
	
mat	Yeah.
	
liz	Is what I do like doing is going out socialising yeah?
	
mat	Yeah.
	
liz	There we were in New York City and we went to the final night of a conference, it was the Society of Disability Studies. You hear lots of academics “Flah, flah, flah” and the final night… 
	
mat	It was quite “Flah, flah, flah?”
	
Liz	It was very “Flah, flah, flah” and on the final night they had, we were led to believe, this would be a fantastic dance okay? It’s the night when everyone lets go, it’s full of crips dancing doing their funky stuff, if you’re going to be there for any time be there for then. 
	
mat	Yeah I actually had been doing the Mermaid Parade in Coney Island, and I’d been invited to the Mermaid Ball but went, “No I’m going to my disability dance because I’ve been told it’s going to be so good.” 
	
liz	Oh yeah.
	
mat	Tell them what it was like Liz.
	
liz	Okay. It was like a day centre night it was.
	
mat	With the lights on.
	
liz	With the lights on.
	
mat	The neon lights on.
	
liz	With only like hot orange juice to drink. 
	
mat	Yeah I arrived, there was… just as I saw the last remaining beer, from the one small crate of six beers that had been provided, somebody swiped it and went, “I’m sorry but I’d be happy to share.” I just turned round and walked out and went straight down the ((office 44:12?)).
	
liz	Apparently the DJ had been told not to play any music with swearing in it. 
	
mat	Yeah. 
	
liz	Yeah because that’s too much for us disabled. 
	
mat	And this is coming from the Society for Disability and Gender Sexuality Studies.
	
liz	Right. 
	
mat	Yeah what it is, why was it, it was dreadful? 
	
liz	I don’t really know why I brought this up, but it was just to say can we do these things well because I had previously, you know I went on the ADAD actually the American Direct Action Disability thing.
	
mat	Yeah, yeah.
	
liz	Okay. And they had a party at their last night. So again you’ve got disabled people, really strong powerful people and there was a dance, oh my god it was just as bad. 
	
mat 	Are we being elitists, Liz, because I did notice at the New York shindig, and I’m sure at the other one you went to, a lot of people were having a really good time… 
	
liz	Yeah no they… yes.
	
mat	You know wheelie dancing and kneeling dancing with the wheelchair users…
	
liz	Is it us being English, are we being very English?
	
mat	I don’t know either we’re being complaining old rubbish grumpy people.
	
liz	Old people.
	
mat	Or we actually know how good it can be. Because I’m sorry to mention Heart and Soul again but if you’ve been to a Beautiful Octopus club - a rocking, kicking good DJ’d club in a club, where you’re allowed to drink alcohol and stay up late and all those things, why would you want to go back to the day centre with the neon lights and hot orange squash?
	
liz	Maybe that’s it, maybe that’s the thing that these ‘dos’ have to be in a club, you know, the whole atmosphere thing, because both of them have been in function rooms in hotels, and there’s just no matter what they do they just have that feel of… like I think wedding dos have that as well. No matter… 
	
mat	I think also it’s down to money. They spend a lot of the money, they’d had a huge cabaret the night before which a lot of money had been spent on, and I think probably they’d just run out of money so they had it in the free room that the university gave them. The thing is to end something on slightly a damp squib like that it’s not good is it?
	
liz	But that’s the challenge I want to find the ultimate, maybe… I’ve never been to the Beautiful Octopus Club but also, listeners, if you know of any place where you can go, you can totally be yourself, freak out with a bunch of crips and have a good night out, a good dancing night out let us know, or how we could put one on. Because the search is there I think.
	
mat	Why don’t we make one? Tell us all about it listeners and we’ll try and get one together ourselves. 
[Jingle:
Dry your eyes and listen in
Disabled
Mat Fraser
Disabled
Liz Carr
The Ouch Podcast]

[Now it’s time for Vegetable, Vegetable or Vegetable]

liz	Oh yes it’s time for that Veg, Veg or Veg we all know and love. 
	
mat 	Love to hate. We get a disabled caller on the line, as you know, we grill them a bit and work out what’s wrong with them. It’s like when you get surrounded by people at a pub basically. 
	
liz	Who do we have on the line Mat?
	
mat	Hello, Maddie from Scotland? 
	
maddie	Hi, hello!
	
liz	Hello Maddie!
	
mat	Oh hello Maddie!
	
liz	Oh what a great accent. 
	
mat	Ooh!
	
liz	Don’t, don’t copy it. 
	
mat	No one’s… no how could you copy an accent like that. Maddie, who are you, where are you and what do you do, but make sure you don’t mention anything about the impairment, you know the rules. 
	
maddie	Oh okay. My name is Maddie McGregor.
	
mat	Sorry stop, could you just say that bit again please?
	
maddie	Sorry? 
	
mat	Just say that again.
	
maddie	Hello, my name is Maddie McGregor.
	
liz	Ah it’s beautiful. Carry on.
	
mat	Great. Aye, aye.
	
liz	Where are you from? As if we had to ask.
	
maddie 	I’m living in Edinburgh. 
	
mat	But you’re not from Edinburgh are you?
	
maddie	No, no I’ve travelled around a wee bit but I’ve been living here a while now. 
	
liz	And what do you do Maddie?
	
maddie	I’m a lecturer.
	
liz	Nice.
	
mat	Are we allowed to ask in what?
	
maddie	In humanities.
	
mat	Ahh.
	
liz	He’s going ‘ahh’ what does… that means he doesn’t know what it means. 
	
mat	I don’t know what it means. 
	
liz	What does that mean?
	
maddie	I suppose it’s all human interest kind of subjects really Mat and Liz, of course.
	
liz	Okay.
	
mat	She likes me better.
	
maddie	I’m sorry Liz.
	
liz	It’s fine, it’s fine. Okay on with the show on that note. Here are the rules. Oh I’ve missed doing this. Do you mind?
	
mat	Awh I love it when you do it Liz. Please… 
	
liz	Are you all right, you don’t mind me doing it… 
	
mat	No do it. 
	
liz	… is this a little issue for you?
	
mat	Maggie and I are all ears. Well probably - we don’t know about Maddie. 
	
liz	Vegetable, Vegetable, Vegetable is a clever disability interpretation of the parlour game Animal Vegetable or Mineral. In the game the two hosts of the Ouch Podcast have 90 seconds to guess what is wrong with the disabled caller on the line by asking a series of fiendishly intelligent questions. The caller must answer only yes or no. It is both classic and therapeutic.
	
Mat	To take part in this intrusive and unpleasant game the rules clearly state you must be disabled. Maddie, are you disabled?

Maddie	I am.
	
liz	Okay, all set Maddie?
	
maddie	Aye. 
	
liz	90 seconds on the clock remember only answer ‘yes’ or ‘no’ the time starts now. 
	
mat	Are you agoraphobic?
	
maddie	No. 
	
liz	Are you a person of restricted growth?
	
maddie	Sorry what does that mean?
	
mat	Are you a dwarf?
	
liz	Are you short?
	
maddie	No not quite. 
	
LIZ	Ah but you’re little?
	
maddie	Maybe. 
	
mat	Are you disability little or just little?
	
maddie 	I think well I’m thinking both ways actually.
	
liz	Ah are you short because of drugs that you’ve taken?
	
maddie	It could well be actually. I’ve taken my medication this morning.
	
mat	Have you shrunk?
	
maddie	I’m supposed to take it this afternoon. 
	
liz	Are you the incredible shrinking woman?
	
maddie	No, love.
	
liz	No. 
	
mat	Do you use a wheelchair?
	
maddie	Aye I do. 
	
liz	Oh she does a wheelchair. Do you have arthritis?
	
maddie	Aye I do. 
	
liz	But that’s not it?
	
maddie	Well that’s part of it.
	
liz	Is that part of it? 
	
mat	Have you got osteoarthritis? 
	
maddie	Well it’s in bits of my body.
	
liz	Have you ankylosing spondylitis? 
	
maddie 	Would you mind explaining what that is?
	
liz	I don’t know but I like the word.
	
maddie	It’s a long word.
	
mat	Okay. Do you have the full use of your arms?
	
maddie	Only partial use ((49:47?)).
	
liz	Really? Have you got those kind of ((arthritisy?)) fingers you know the ones I mean with the swollen knuckles?
	
maddie	Aye and they so hurt.
	
liz	Really yeah sorry.
	
mat	Oh I’m sorry about that.
	
liz	Sorry yes. 
	
mat	And does it stop at your neck or does it go up into your head? Have you got an arthritic head? 
	
maddie	No. 
	
liz	Obviously not, she’s a lecturer.
	
maddie	Apart from when I’m drinking alcohol. 
	
mat	You’re never drunk on the job though ((50:08?)) that’s not about disability.
	
liz	So apart from this arthritis and pain which, obviously, you have is there anything else that you’ve got wrong with you?
	
maddie	Aye I have. 
	
liz	Oh god. ((Time runs out)) No but didn’t we get something…
	
mat	We got two out of… 
	
liz	… we got some points.
	
mat	… hold on, hold on, Maddie put us out of our misery what is your disability? 
	
maddie	Okay, Matthew, I’m a very good friend of yours, and my name is Rosie ((Marriate Symmons - sp)) and my impairment is thalidomide. 
	
mat	You unbelievable ((50:36?)). Rosie, you completely got us, was that really you?
	
rosie 	Do you think I’d make a good actor then?
	
mat	Oh my god! That’s unbelievable! That is the best…  
	
rosie	You must have guessed at some stage?
	
Mat	No! We honestly we didn’t we thought we had Maddie…
 	
liz	So many times… 
	
rosie	Maddie McGregor ((51:01?))
	
liz	I guess you were too Scottish ((from?)) Scottish.
	
rosie	… or weekends. 
	
mat	I have always wanted a thalidomide on and to be duped, it’s like double bubble. Oh, Rosie, well done thank you. 
	
liz	Thank you so much, Rosie.
	
rosie	Well you now have me, Mat, you can ask me what you like. And the idea, well it was a prank to get one back on you, because you’re always playing jokes on us and it’s so good to have done it. 
	
mat	Yeah well bang to rights. No we have to ask you the same questions. 
	
liz	Of course. 
	
rosie	So what do people usually say to you when they find out you’re a thalidomide? 
	
liz	Is it, “Do you know Mat Fraser” is that what they ask you? 
	
rosie	I do, I know him very well, we’ve known each other very man years. And I have to… 
	
mat	Careful, Rosie.
	
rosie	… to say your son is sat here and he’s asking after you daddy. 
	
mat	Ahh! I’ll have to tell him about the adoption another time.
 	
liz	Did you just do this for the podcast mug?
	
rosie	Yes I did, I’m so desperate for a mug. Actually my son and my husband wants one as well, Steve wants one as well, Mat…
	
liz	They want three.
	
rosie	Is that possible?
	
mat	Well can we give the whole family one, Damon… 
	
liz	It sounds like you have. 
	
mat	… the producer. 
	
rosie	Well we won’t talk about… well actually I could tell you about that.
	
mat	DON’T tell them about that.
	
liz	So really you have Mat Fraser’s love child? 
	
mat	Ha, ha, ha!
	
rosie	I have Mat Fraser’s love child. 
	
liz	Really? 
	
mat	Steve, I am so sorry. 
	
liz	Wow! And is he thalidomide as well?
	
rosie 	He is actually.
	
liz	It runs in the family.
	
mat	He’s ((fall 52:24?)) and deficient.
	
liz	Awh. 
	
mat	Hey, Rosie, thanks ever so much. 
	
liz	Rosie, I have a question?
	
rosie	Yes ((52:28?))
	
liz	What’s your thalidomide number?
	
rosie	Oh god I can’t remember it.
	
Liz	Really?
	
mat	I’m 130.
	
rosie 	I think it’s 250.
	
liz	250 nice!
	
mat	250!
	
liz	You’re younger than him then? 
	
mat	Yes she is ha, ha, ha.
	
rosie 	Am I, Mat, how old are you?  
	
liz	And do you… 
	
mat	Oh in my 40s.
	
liz	… do you lot all know each other? 
	
mat	Yeah most of us.
	
rosie	Well out of the 450 of us…
	
liz	Yeah.
	
rosie	… I would say that I would know about 250 odd.
	
liz	Right. 
	
mat	I probably know about 100.
	
rosie	And Mat, of course, is a pin up for all of us. 
	
liz	Of course, he is for all disability, all disabled people. Yes bless him. 
	
mat	I’m a dark horse.
	
liz	Rosie, a real pleasure, thank you for getting one over on our favourite Mat Fraser.
	
mat	Thank you, Rosie, that was brilliant. Love to the family. 
	
rosie 	Cheers, darling love you lots.
	
liz	Bye bye.
	
mat	Bye.
	
rosie 	Bye.
	
liz	If you feel you have an impairment worthy of this special game and want to play on the next edition then email us now ouch@bbc.co.uk that’s ouch@bbc.co.uk.
[Jingle: The Ouch podcast democratising disability.]
That’s almost it for this month, but before we go and before we introduce the grand finale, oh this is quite special, ladies and gentlemen, we want you to vote on which track to play at the end of next month’s show.
	
mat	Wow what an opportunity!
	
liz	I know!
	
mat	We’re going to offer you up two songs; both are from Sounds of the Disabled Underground which is an LP by people with learning disabilities. It was compiled by the people who bring you Heavy Load and there is something for everyone on the CD.
	
liz	So the first track is by ((Catherine O'Rourke?)) and is called Planets - take a listen. 
[Playing music]
	
Mat	I’m feeling early 80s mood coming on there.
	
liz	Hm me too.
	
mat	The other choice is Doctor Who by Dele Fakoya and here’s a snippet to wet your appetite. 
[Playing music]
	
liz	I can’t wait for next month’s show. Whoa, it’s going to be some ending. So you can vote for the one you want to hear next time by going to bbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast.
	
mat	That’s it. I’m doing a little dalek homage there. Our thanks, as always, go to the production team: Emma Tracey, Damon Rose, and our most patient studio manager in the universe, Jo Hutton. Thanks to facilitators Jo and ((Viera - sp?)) and, of course, much love and respect yeah for you for listening in boy! 
	
liz	As mentioned this month we’re playing out with music from Heavy Load. This Sussex punk band which has members with and without a learning disability are currently storming the country with news of their ‘Stay up Late’ campaign. 
	
mat 	Praise the Load! Hm they’re very busy because they’ve also been touring with their film. Check it out yeah on heavyloadthemovie.com and they have a new LP out called Shut It.
	
liz	LP? From that LP here’s their latest single Farty Animals.
	
mat	See you next month. 
	
liz	See you next month. 
	
mat	Bye. 
[Playing music from Heavy Load]